Isolating the harmonics, in Sygyt?

[seankernan]

When I hear people doing Sygyt properly, the basic tone seeems to disappear, leaving onl those overtones that sound like pan pipes. Is there a way to head toward this?

[Sedthroat]

On Sun, 1 Jan 2006, seankernan wrote:

> When I hear people doing Sygyt properly, the basic tone seeems to
> disappear, leaving onl those overtones that sound like pan pipes. Is
> there a way to head toward this?

Hi Sean,

practice, be patient, try, focus.
There is no magic path :)
If you don't have a teacher, of course it will take more time, but you can
do it.

Take care,
Cedric.



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[throatsinger]

The perception of sygyt depends on the experience and skill of the listener. While we often hear of singers that "remove" the fundamental, such is never the case, and most experienced listeners indeed hear the fundamental and lower overtones.

While there is, of course, no magic path, there remains the fact that it is simply a technique, and techniques can be taught and learned.

[throatsinger]

PS: If you haven't already done so, do a search for "sygyt" using the search button near the top of each page. You'll find many topics and discussions that might be helpful.

Hey Queaern, were you going to start a new sygyt discussion?

[throatsinger]

Here's a preview of some stuff I'm preparing. This shows the oft-mentioned laryngeal constriction. More notes later.

If you download it then play it back in QT Player, you can really expand it with decent detail.

Not for the sqeamish...

[aiwetir]

yeah i wan't more notes ;)

what exactly is that i'm looking at

[throatsinger]

Ahh, glasshoppa, you don't wish to guess? :)

These will help:

http://khoomei.com/videos/fibroscopy.mov

http://khoomei.com/videos/larynxid.mov

Compare the appearance of the "folds brought together for voicing" (normal phonation) with the greatly constricted opening in the sygyt video, where it is nearly impossible to see the vocal folds. They look like "tiny vibrating teeth" in the sygyt larynx video.

Of course, I usually recommend the nasal port be closed in sygyt for a better sound, but I lacked that option at the time.

The video does a pretty good job of illustrating the constriction, and the movement of the epiglottis with the melody, this movement being generated by it's attachment to the root of the tongue (the gnarly lumpy stuff near the bottom of the screen). The epiglottis is the "shiny surfboard that's coming right atcha!"

At about 19 and again at about 33 seconds, you can see the folds relaxed, opening in the breath position.

Great way to spend an afternoon!

[imnotelmo]

it's been said many times in other threads
but hasn't been mention specifically here yet.

first, you've got to have really good khoomei
as that is what sygyt is built on. if your basic
throat constriction is not very good (often called
xoorektyr on this forum) then your starting
sound will be to soft to get decent isolation.

second, sygyt technique needs to be really
precise and takes much finesse. again, if you
try sygyt before you have really good control
with khoomei you will have a weak sygyt.

so focus on your khoomei and good sygyt will
follow naturally as your sound develops.

[khomus-old]

Here's an interesting question though.  I'm not disputing the ideas here at all, but what do we make of reports that traditionally, singers knew/practiced one major style?  It's sort of accepted that, due to ensembles and the like, one of the changes that's happened in Tuvan music is a mixing of styles.  So it's sort of interesting that we say things like good sygyt is based on good khoomei.  Like I said, I'm not arguing that at all.  It just suddenly struck me, about how traditional singers usually had one main style.  So I wonder how Tuvans see it?  Is good sygyt based on good khoomei for them?
 
That's not to say if it isn't, we should change our approach.  I think for those of us in the West, the way we are educated and all, this approach is a good one.  I'm just sort of curious if the Tuvans see it that way.

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[aiwetir]

you can't even call it sygyt if you don't have good constriction and khoreketeer, so in short, you must have good khoomei for a good sygyt.

or maybe i'm not understanding your point

[hjernespiser]

I think there is a need to make separation between "style" and "technique". The word xorekteer tries to do this. Brian is saying you need good technique in the throat constriction before you can do good sygyt technique and sygyt style.

Singers who are known for their khoomei are known for their khoomei style. Understand? By using the word "style" I'm trying to reference something that is done with the "technique".

Maybe the terms work, maybe they don't.

.s

[throatsinger]

1. The issue of what is style vs what us technique is an important one, and one deserving of careful analysis and discussion.

2. It's somtimes said that back in the day, singers used to sing mainly 1 or maybe 2 styles. Specialists compared to those who now frequently perform several styles. That being said, I've heard old recordings where singers recorded in a few or several different styles, although they were perhaps exceptions in their time. Multistylists usually do develop one style more than others. Kongar-ool can sing many styles but specializes in sygyt, for example. Kaigal-ool specializes in khoomei. Anatoly Kuular, khoomei and sygyt borbang. Alden-ool Sevek, kargyraa. Mongun-ool specializes in sygyt/borbang. All those guys can sing in many styles/techniques. In contrast, Albert Kuvezin generally sticks to low kargyraa in performance.

It can vary with context, of course. For example, in a band situation I perform sygyt more than kargyraa, as it cuts better through a band, or with didges, as opposed to kargyraa which will muddy things up if there are bass, drums, and other lower frequency source instruments.

3. It is indeed necessary to develop good khoomei in order to sing good sygyt. Sygyt IS based on khoomei, for Tuvans and everyone else, too! As Mike pointed out, no xorekteer, no khoomei. Xorekteer provides the raw material. Khoomei technique then uses the movement of the epiglottis and root of the tongue to select the melodic harmonic. This leaves the tongue, lips, etc. free for further filtering, ornamenation (such as borbang), etc. Throat-singing technique should always progress from the bottom/rear of the vocal system upwards and forwards.

[imnotelmo]

--- khomus <khoomei@khoomei.com> wrote:

> ... reports that traditionally, singers
> knew/practiced one major style?� ...

my understanding is that most singers could
do all the styles, but then they would
develop their signature style and specialize
in that.

a recent example would be Aldar Tamdyn
(of the group Chirgilchin), he can sing
all the styles but considers kargyraa to
be his specialty and so he most often
sings kargyraa. in fact if you ask him he
will tell you he is a kargyraaist and not
a throatsinger.


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[throatsinger]

Eh... Throatsinger sounds better on the ol' résumé