Tuvan names

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Tuvan names

Postby Alzin » Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:00 pm

Ok, I just want to know:
Many Tuvans have an "-ool" or something similar attached to their names. Does that mean something, is it like a title or something? And which of their names actually comes first? Sometimes it's the one with the "-ool", sometimes the other one, depending on who is writing the name. So which one is the forename and which one the last name, or don't they have something like that? Then why two names?
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Re: Tuvan names

Postby throatsinger » Tue Mar 08, 2011 5:51 pm

It means boy.
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Re: Tuvan names

Postby hysteresis » Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:48 pm

It's like the -son suffix of some western surnames and means "son of ..." as you might have guessed. I don't know if any other Turkic country has surnames like that but it's also so common in Turkey as "-oğlu".
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Re: Tuvan names

Postby throatsinger » Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:27 pm

Maybe "son of" in Turkey, but in Tuva I'm sure it means boy.
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Re: Tuvan names

Postby Alzin » Wed Mar 09, 2011 8:53 am

So is it attached to the last name? And I think -ool isn't the only one I read, I just can't remember the other ones...
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Re: Tuvan names

Postby Synapse309 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:45 pm

All I know is that I have a lot of recordings where the artist's name is spelled "Oorzhak Khunashtar-Ool", but I'm pretty sure that Oorzhak is the surname, same as in Nikolai Oorzhak.

Aldyn-Ool Sevek's name means Golden Boy, AFAIK, Sevek being the surname.

Then there's Sholbana Belek-Ool of the all-girl band Tyva Kyzy (to me that means "Tuvan Girl", the official name is "Daughters of Tuva"), who is a woman, and thus I am confused as to whether the name containing "boy" is the first or last name...

Kongar-Ool Ondar, Kaigal-Ool Khovalyg, etc... apart from different ways to spell these names in our alphabet, nobody here (in white people land) seems to give to craps about whether the names are even correct. An example is a track I got named "Idamchap Chomushgu - Chomushgu Ayalgalar", where I don't even know what the artist's name is... :anxious:
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Re: Tuvan names

Postby throatsinger » Thu Mar 10, 2011 5:57 pm

"Idamchap Chomushgu" is a transliteration of the artist's name.

In Tuva,as in much of the world, the family name comes first. Hence, they would say Xovalyg Kaigal-ool. But people just call him, socially, Kaigal-ool. -ool is usually a personal name, but sometimes is part of a family name.
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Re: Tuvan names

Postby hjernespiser » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:14 pm

Yep, name order can get a little confusing because it looks like some Tuvans have an ancestor's first name as a family name.

BTW, Tuvans don't use -ool like -oglu in Turkish. They use Russian patronymics for saying "son of, daughter of". Just because oglu and ool are derived from the same ancestor word doesn't mean they are used the same way. You can read about Tuvan naming traditions here: http://www.swarthmore.edu/SocSci/dharri ... ted%29.pdf
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Re: Tuvan names

Postby hjernespiser » Thu Mar 10, 2011 6:29 pm

@synapse,

"apart from different ways to spell these names in our alphabet, nobody here (in white people land) seems to give to craps about whether the names are even correct."

The same thing happened with personal names as happened with band names (Xün Xürtü -> Huun Huur Tu). Transliteration is only as good as the knowledge of the writing system by the reader.

As an English speaker, if you saw the word "Kongar-ool" without having heard it, you'd likely pronounce it to rhyme with "pool". If you saw "Kongar-ol" you'd not rhyme it with "pool". It's a marketing thing I guess. If his name were spelled Kongar-ool, over time I'm sure people would learn the correct pronunciation. The same can be said for the spelling though; over time people would learn that Kongar-ol is not how the name is spelled in Cyrillic, but they'd know how to pronounce it.
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Re: Tuvan names

Postby Synapse309 » Thu Mar 10, 2011 7:06 pm

Yup, it's long since been a pet peeve of mine that proper names are being translated...

I grew up learning of a man named Jesus Christus who had associates named Markus, Lukas, Johannes, Paul and Petrus.
Here, in English-land, they are called Jesus Christ, Mark, Luke, John, Paul and Peter. :scratch:

I find it atrocious to re-name folks unless they decide for themselves to assimilate their given names. Many folks come to a different country and find that the natives mispronounce or misspell their names, such as Jürgen, Rüdiger, etc. Trying to explain to the people how to really say the name can be so bothersome at times that they'd use a similar name such George, Rod, etc.
But who gave permission to call Jeanne d'Arc "Joan of Arc"? I myself am not referred to as Dan Carpenter...

As far as Kongar-Ool is concerned... yes, when you read it it spells "KONG-GAR UL", but if it were Kongar-Ol it would be "KONG-GAR AWL", which is also incorrect, but how do you explain to people of a language that don't understand doubling of vowels to increase their spoken length? Double "O" in Tuva and many other places is NOT "U", but a long "O"... In German, one could write "Ohl" which makes the vowel longer but doesn't change its sound. Too many countries are now familiar with the words pool and shampoo...

In my opinion, English doesn't have enough letters in its alphabet, or it needs accents to disambiguate pronunciation rules for foreigners. Just look at how poorly today's children spell words nowadays, no doubt a result of lack of discipline in learning homonyms and homophones... :shameonyou:
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