The variety of healing sounds

[melodioso]

Hi Knorxl,
Thanks for the explanation, (your link is broken, but) the website looks interesting. So basically you wish to clean the channels by singing, which is fine by me; but why do you assume that overtone singing or TS can do better?
There are some interesting ideas from member here KIVA: http://www.harmonicovertones.com/why_overtone.php?id=29
I cannot judge this. But why do you think this should happen? And does it happen as a psychological or physical effect?
Thank you,
Lorenzo

[Knorxl]

Hi Lorenzo,

Hi Knorxl,
Thanks for the explanation, (your link is broken, but) the website looks interesting. So basically you wish to clean the channels by singing, which is fine by me; but why do you assume that overtone singing or TS can do better?
There are some interesting ideas from member here KIVA: http://www.harmonicovertones.com/why_overtone.php?id=29
I cannot judge this. But why do you think this should happen? And does it happen as a psychological or physical effect?
Thank you,
Lorenzo

Yes, the link seems to be a bit flaky, sorry about that.

Actually, my initial observation was double:

- On one hand, I noticed that different sounds or types of sounds have an effect on the channels, and can help opening up/clearing them.

- On the other hand, I also noticed that when the channels are open and the energy flow (what we call the qi circulation) is already good, it is easier to sing (no matter what type of technique is used).
It can also happen that during some qigong exercises, people spontaneously emit sounds (this phenomenon seems to be similar to what I have seen described as kriyas elsewhere in this forum). Quite often, when the person's muscles are very relaxed, those sounds can be very low notes, sometimes evolving into overtones.


So it seems to me that sounds are an effective tool to clear the channels, and that when the channels are cleared, sounds tend to come out spontaneously; what's more, when they are produced intentionally, they are of a better quality than when the same person produces them without any initial preparation. Instead of a simple and unidirectional cause/effect situation, I end up with a circular system, so to speak, which feeds itself once it's running.

I am not sure that TS or overtones in general do this 'better' than other sounds, though (that was Albert's question, if I'm correct).
During the I healing sessions I had with Nikolay, he used kargyraa sounds which enhanced my energy circulation in a rather spectacular way, almost instantly. In fact, every time I hear kargyraa, or strong low vibrations, I feel this 'power surge' in my body, unless I'm very tense and/ or resisting the effect. I liken using these sounds to 'jump starting' my lower dantian (the energy center located below the navel), which in turn can lead to other changes in the body.
Similarly, falsetto or countertenor voices also affect me in positive ways, but not to the same extent.

This is one of the reasons why I'm very interested in throat singing; I would like to use it to work on myself, as an alternative to the techniques I already use, because on top of being a healing technique, it would allow me to sing in a way which makes me very, very happy.

When I work on somebody else, sounds are not my main tool. I use my body, and particularly my hands, to direct the energy. However, using my arms/hands effectively isn't always easy for me, as I have sequelae from two whiplashes which have left me with a very weak and damaged cervical spine, and when my upper back is rigid with spasms, I can't use my arms to treat people. I also had surgery on my right hand a few months ago and haven't regained full use of my hand yet, which is a temporary added handicap. Using overtones could allow me to be able to work on myself and on other people while sparing my arms a bit.

About the Kiva page;
Very interesting to read. What it shows correspond to what I can observe in my own self, i.e. overtone singing produces a deeper state of relaxation and of concentration, which is very close to states I can reach via meditation (focussing on the center of the mind).

Now if you ask me what it is which produces this, I'm not sure I can explain it very clearly, but I'll try.
Physical or psychological effect? I'd say both, as singing or meditating have an influence on the whole person, physically, psychologically (and also spiritually, but probably not systematically, depending on the purpose, intention and techniques used). The difference in the brain waves correspond to different physiological states, which are themselves coupled with different psychological states.

I know that quite some research has been done about the effects of meditation (http://www.mindandlife.org is an interesting site, for example), but I guess we're still in need of someone or something to do the same with sounds, singing, etc.

It's awfully late and I'll stop this post here, hoping it's not too confusing or too confused, Let me know if some of my answers need more/better explanations!

Knorxl

[diphoo]

Hello Knorxl,

This is one of the reasons why I'm very interested in throat singing; I would like to use it to work on myself, as an alternative to the techniques I already use, because on top of being a healing technique, it would allow me to sing in a way which makes me very, very happy.

I have been using overtone singing to balance people energy for 4 years now.
I also use my hands too while i am singing.

Have you already tried overtone singing by yourself?
After me it is better to use a kind of Sygyt (as i do) because it is softer than Khoomei.

You have more informations on the following thread:

http://www.khoomei.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=604

Bye :-)

Diphoo

[Knorxl]

Hello Diphoo,

Thanks a lot for your input, I began to read the thread you mentioned (I should be doing something else, but couldn't resist a 'sneak preview...), and I'll certainly come back to it when I've finished reading it.

I have been using overtone singing to balance people energy for 4 years now.
I also use my hands too while i am singing.

Do you use a specific hand technique?
I use my hands the way we do with the Buqi healing system: to diagnose blockages and give direction to the energy flow in myself or the person treated.

Have you already tried overtone singing by yourself?

Yes, that's how the whole thing started. My friend was singing overtones for himself and I just chimed in. In the beginning I wasn't able to sing the note he would begin with (couldn't define it properly, therefore couldn't reproduce it), but I would systematically produce the 5th harmonic (that's how he calls it, he says it's also called the 4th overtone, if that can clarify things). I didn't try to change that, as when we have those spontaneous 'sessions', we don't make conscious choices of sounds; I think we produce the sounds we need to rebalance ourselves, and that 'tuning' process between him and I are part of that rebalancing process.

After me it is better to use a kind of Sygyt (as i do) because it is softer than Khoomei.

I see your point.
However, at least for me, kargyraa-style sounds are more effective on the dantian area (area corresponding to the 2nd chakra). Because I often have problems in my lower back, I use them a lot. I can feel the vibration move down my body and it also gives me a precise feedback on whixh level of the abdomen I need to work more.

More on this when I'm done with the other things I must do today!

Knorxl

[diphoo]

Hello Knorxl, :-)

Do you use a specific hand technique?
I use my hands the way we do with the Buqi healing system: to diagnose blockages and give direction to the energy flow in myself or the person treated.

I use the same technique but when I find a blockage I also use my voice trying to find which harmonic interval works to free the blocked energy.
It is a kind of surgery with sound.
Sometimes only one precise harmonic interval is needed.

Yes, that's how the whole thing started. My friend was singing overtones for himself and I just chimed in. In the beginning I wasn't able to sing the note he would begin with (couldn't define it properly, therefore couldn't reproduce it), but I would systematically produce the 5th harmonic (that's how he calls it, he says it's also called the 4th overtone, if that can clarify things). I didn't try to change that, as when we have those spontaneous 'sessions', we don't make conscious choices of sounds; I think we produce the sounds we need to rebalance ourselves, and that 'tuning' process between him and I are part of that rebalancing process.

Playing the harmonic scale and be able to choose one interval maybe hard to do (at the beginning) but when you have a goal like balancing people energy it is well worthwhile.

After me it is better to use a kind of Sygyt (as i do) because it is softer than Khoomei.

I see your point.
However, at least for me, kargyraa-style sounds are more effective on the dantian area (area corresponding to the 2nd chakra). Because I often have problems in my lower back, I use them a lot. I can feel the vibration move down my body and it also gives me a precise feedback on whixh level of the abdomen I need to work more.

I think the best thing would be to be able to use these two techniques.

Bye !

Diphoo

[melodioso]

Psychologically I mean the fact that the patient will hear something strange (like "two sounds from one source") and get in a special state o mind, can be just marvel - or more depending on the transfer.

Physically is more difficult for me to understand.

There is no interval in overtone singing. There is just one note and an emphasis on some frequency. You can call it interval, but it isn't. It's a part of the original sound. But of course, this is enough for healing, I trust your experience! But does not explain to me why should overtone singing do a better service to patients.

Can I think of sygyt as a needle, where the frequency range is so narrow and so much energy in one frequency?
Maybe this is what you mean?
For example, If you play an A and its F12, that's an E, but do you get the same effect you you play an E and its F8, the same E as above?
Is frequency the key?

Finally, I can easier understand the case of Kargyraa, as most probably the spectrum is richer (from how I see it) and the frequencies can be much lower than usual.
Although I think the beauty of Kargyraa is not in the low end, it's in the high end!

Thank you,

Lorenzo

[yidaki]

You don't have to divide psyche and physique,
you can marvel from something physical and marvel can be physical.

[diphoo]

Hello Lorenzo, :-)

Psychologically I mean the fact that the patient will hear something strange (like "two sounds from one source") and get in a special state o mind, can be just marvel - or more depending on the transfer.

The patient does not only hear "something strange" he also feel "something strange" moving inside and outside his physical body.
And depending his sensitivity to feel "energy" he will be able to describe the processus while I am singing.
Then the patient guide me to help him to feel balanced.

Physically is more difficult for me to understand.

There is no interval in overtone singing. There is just one note and an emphasis on some frequency. You can call it interval, but it isn't. It's a part of the original sound. But of course, this is enough for healing, I trust your experience! But does not explain to me why should overtone singing do a better service to patients.

The excessive use of the mental is a big problem for human to understand simple things.

Can I think of sygyt as a needle, where the frequency range is so narrow and so much energy in one frequency?
Maybe this is what you mean?

I also use (a kind of) Sygyt on a low range with low overtones.

For example, If you play an A and its F12, that's an E, but do you get the same effect you you play an E and its F8, the same E as above?
Is frequency the key?

I cannot give you an answer because I don't record my singing and talking while balancing people energy.
I use my intuition and the feeling of the patient:
this is a "let-yourself-go" processus.

Why not trying by yourself to get your own answers?
Then we could compare and could be surprised by the results!

Bye!

Diphoo

[melodioso]

The excessive use of the mental is a big problem for human to understand simple things.

That's right. But it's sometimes intersting to know how an engine works even if you're just a driver.

Why not trying by yourself to get your own answers?
Then we could compare and could be surprised by the results!

Someone said here it can be dangerous...

I tried with my children, especially with low tones, with very wide spectrum (no OS or TS) it seems to relax them. But I'm the father.

I have been using low singing to make babies sleep years before I could even think of the things we are discussing now, and it always worked. But I'm the father, so I think that whatever I can do can make them relax!

However recently I am singing much deeper and lower than before due to some special training so I may give some results here.

Any suggestion is welcome!

Thanks,
Lorenzo

[diphoo]

Hello Lorenzo, :-)

Someone said here it can be dangerous...

Do you prefer to believe in someone who obviously is afraid
because someone else told him that it could be dangerous to practice things that someone else told him that it could be dangerous to practice things that someone else......... without knowing nothing about it,

than to trust in yourself ?

Believing in fearness is dangerous.

---------------------------------------------------

Overtone singing is different from common singing because of the interval
phenomenon between the basic tone and the high frequency overtones and
also because of its natural harmonic scale.
Overtone singing creates a natural balance between physical, emotionnal and spiritual "bodies" cutting the mental circle.Why not?

Again, why not trying to test what I am telling ?

It seems as if I was the only one practicing overtone singing to balance people's energy!

I can't believe that.I feel alone.Where are you?

Help! :-)


Diphoo

[melodioso]

Well, I reported my early steps somewhere here... I forgot in which tread.

I don't think you can speak of interval, Diphoo. It's enhanced frequencies, but just one note.

I very much agree that you give way to a very much enhanced experience of the harmonic scale.
That's true! Maybe that's the key. So depending on the overtone, or interval as you call it, one can be touched by the relationship of frequencies and have the feeling of the harmonic scale. Not an interval, but actually - a relationship is an interval!

But let's leave the technical thing apart.
Why don't you tell us some of your experiences?
Or suggestions to newbies?

I have some stories, too.

Thank you,
Lorenzo

[Knorxl]

Hi Lorenzo,

Why not trying by yourself to get your own answers?
Then we could compare and could be surprised by the results!

Someone said here it can be dangerous...

I tried with my children, especially with low tones, with very wide spectrum (no OS or TS) it seems to relax them. But I'm the father.

I have been using low singing to make babies sleep years before I could even think of the things we are discussing now, and it always worked. But I'm the father, so I think that whatever I can do can make them relax!

However recently I am singing much deeper and lower than before due to some special training so I may give some results here.

Any suggestion is welcome!

Thanks,
Lorenzo

High frequencies are generally considered beneficial, while low ones are more delicate to use. One example is that low frequencies can make one feel very sleepy, which can be a problem if you work, say, with machines which produce such frequencies, as your degree of alertness can be negatively altered and lead to accidents.

If the goal is to make someone sleepy, then the right amount of low frequencies doesn't appear to be dangerous, something you apparently know intuitively when you sing to your children.

I, for one, have been know to fall asleep (and enjoy the whole experience) in newspaper printing rooms (the old fashioned one, many years ago) and even in loud nightclubs, usually propped against one of the loudspeakers... Would it have been even more pleasant if someone I liked had sung something to me with the deep voices or the Russian 'basso profundo' singers?
;-)

Something like 'just enough, just in time' might be the key to safe use of sounds!

Knorxl

[Knorxl]

balance between physical, emotionnal and spiritual "bodies" cutting the mental circle.Why not?

Again, why not trying to test what I am telling ?

It seems as if I was the only one practicing overtone singing to balance people's energy!

I can't believe that.I feel alone.Where are you?

Help! :-)


Diphoo

No panic! Just give me some time to get my khoomei right...
;-)

Actually, earlier tonight I was soaking in a wooden hot tub under the stars after falling asleep in the damp sauna. My 'tub companion' was my singer friend, and soon we were making overtones (and bubbles in the water, but we can't help it, we're like kids in that tub!). After about 30 mn, we were happy, relaxed and in excellent spirits. I noticed that it's easier for me to work on higher pitches while immerged in water than to work on low vibrations; I guess I'm not big and heavy enough to balance the lack of gravity provided by the water.

Does anyone have a trick to transform my (probably) mezzo voice into a nice full barytone-bass one?

:-)

Knorxl

[throatsinger]

Diphoo, you are not alone. However, I tend to use the voice on myself, and teach others to use it on themselves, more than on others. There are exceptions, but my preference when working on others leans more toward didg, Himalayan metalophones, etc. For me there is more power there.

Knorxl, there are techniques, but tricks?!?! It's not realistic to offer tips without hearing you, so how about some samples?

Also: "High frequencies are generally considered beneficial, while low ones are more delicate to use."

By who, and is this justified?

Lorenzo: "There is no interval in overtone singing. There is just one note and an emphasis on some frequency. You can call it interval, but it isn't. It's a part of the original sound."

Yes, this is true in the analytic sense. But, do we hear and feel and respond analytically? Or based on feeling/effect?

Very good threads in this category lately, everyone! Forgive my absence but right now my priorities are elsewhere, and I've lacked the time to respond in a worthy manner. Stay tuned...

ATB,

[melodioso]

But, do we hear and feel and respond analytically? Or based on feeling/effect?

What is - feeling? Chemistry? No? Who said no?
Don't we hear analytically? Why not?
I don't know, really. Some days I give different replies to these questions.
Lorenzo