The variety of healing sounds

[Knorxl]

(this is continued from my introductory post in the General Chat forum)
khomus wrote:

Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 1:43 am Post subject: say hello in this thread
What's the name of the Chinese system? Any info on it online, or
books or such? Feel free to move it to the sound healing forum
before the moderators smack us, heh!


It's called Buqi, and the site is http://www.buqi.net. Sounds are part of the healing techniques and are meant to give a direction to the energy movement. They are not as complex as Nikolay's sounds, as the energy is concentrated in one frequency band, while throat singing sounds are producing more than one frequency band.

I don't have specific technical knowledge of sound, so please excuse my 'unscientific' way of describing this!

Knorxl

[selfonlypath]

It's called Buqi, and the site is http://www.buqi.net. Sounds are part of the healing techniques and are meant to give a direction to the energy movement.

Hi Knorxl,

Do you know if this chinese systems uses Taiji Pole vessel ?

If yes, does this system enables to dissolve the winds into one of the gates of Taiji Pole ?

Albert

[Knorxl]

Hi Knorxl,

Do you know if this chinese systems uses Taiji Pole vessel ?

If yes, does this system enables to dissolve the winds into one of the gates of Taiji Pole ?

Albert

Hi Albert,

I'm afraid I'm not sure I completely understand your question - I'm not used to the terminology you use - but I'll give it a try.

The system I work with is concerned firstly with unblocking the qi so it circulate freely, and secondly with eliminating the negative qi (which I know as Binqi) from the body, guiding it to whichever exit is closest and/or easy to use (for instance down the legs and out the big toes for something located in the lower half of the body, or the arms and fingers for the upper body, or the top of the head for anything located in the neck or head). Within that perspective, Hui Yin is indeed one of the options.

Does that answer your question?

Knorxl

[khomus]

Can you talk a bit more about the sounds? E.g., are they tied to a
scale, do you play them on an instrument, sing them, in a succession,
make a melody, whatever? Sadly, the site you pointed me to seemed to
be a great big add for workshops. Don't get me wrong, they should do
all the workshops they can manage. It's just not all that likely
that I'll get to one.

(sent via Mail2Forum)

[Knorxl]

Can you talk a bit more about the sounds? E.g., are they tied to a
scale, do you play them on an instrument, sing them, in a succession,
make a melody, whatever? Sadly, the site you pointed me to seemed to
be a great big add for workshops. Don't get me wrong, they should do
all the workshops they can manage. It's just not all that likely
that I'll get to one.

(sent via Mail2Forum)

Actually, the interesting part on the site is the 'Featured articles' bit, down at the bottom of the first page (you need to scroll down the pinkish window); it contains texts describing the principles of the Buqi system and you might find them interesting.

Not everything is explained in detail, though, particularly concerning the technical aspects; the reason for this is that the teacher is worried than people might think they can 'get it right', so to speak, just with reading a book, and he finds this risky. If you don't learn how to do things properly, you may end up either not getting any result, or worse, you can end up doing things in ways which can be detrimental to your physical or mental health.

To answer your question, the sounds are not tied to a particular scale; the characteristics used are the pitched tone and the length of the syllable used. For example, a powerful, short and downward-moving 'ha' sound is very effective to make people sit or stand up straight, and it can be combined with a hand movement (the hand goes down, fast and powerful, palm downwards and fingers gently stretching) which will help move the patient's qi, causing that straightening reaction. The person making the sound will also experience a similar movement, of course. When I do it, I feel this effect, and I'm aware that the movement originates in the dantian.
A long and upward-moving 'heeee' sound can be used to help the patient stretch his spine, too.

The vibrational quality of sounds is also very useful.
When meditating, I often use 2 sounds to clear my mind and make it go quiet: first a nasal vibration which I move up and down in the area between the nostril zone and the third eye, then I breathe out with a long soft 'shhh' sound which I gently push down to the dantian, and further down the legs. I often compare it to the liposuction technique: the same way the canule liquefies the fat cells before they are suctioned out, I evacuate the negative qi blocked in the nose and sinus area.


I hope those examples are clear for you.

Knorxl

[selfonlypath]

Hi Knorxl,

From what you've shared, the system you practice does not provide specific energy work on the *central channel* aka *sushumna* aka *taiji pole* aka *middle pillar* aka *no name channel* which is the only non-dual esoteric channel to enable self-realization process.

Like most Qigong variant, this system only deals with clearing dualistics channels or nadis or vessels that of course need to be stable before dissolving the winds (energy currents) into the non dual channel otherwise one can go through severe bio-mental-spiritual self-damage.

It is still an open question if khoomei is a more powerful sound clearing technique as opposed to classical yoga of sound or healing mantras... I think the answer is yes but never met so far a master of this very subject.

Albert

[Knorxl]

From what you've shared, the system you practice does not provide specific energy work on the *central channel* aka *sushumna* aka *taiji pole* aka *middle pillar* aka *no name channel* which is the only non-dual esoteric channel to enable self-realization process.

I probably wasn't clear enough, then; I'm not that good at explaining something I do without involving the intellectual brain! Please accept my apologies.
The opening of the central channel and the circulation of qi is essential to the Buqi system, combined with the elimination of binqi.
Everything I do while singing (or practicing taiji, qigong, as well as bodywork) involves the activation of the dantian prior to anything else, and of course the opening of the central channel. Without this, there would be limited results, indeed.

Like most Qigong variant, this system only deals with clearing dualistics channels or nadis or vessels that of course need to be stable before dissolving the winds (energy currents) into the non dual channel otherwise one can go through severe bio-mental-spiritual self-damage.

I don't know how you reach this conclusion, from my experience, this is not the case. Do you have any direct knowledge of the Buqi system?

It is still an open question if khoomei is a more powerful sound clearing technique as opposed to classical yoga of sound or healing mantras... I think the answer is yes but never met so far a master of this very subject.

I don't know if khoomei is 'more' or 'as' powerful as other techniques, and I'm not sure it matters that much to me to evaluate things in such a perspective, as I see it more as something which can be more adapted to some people than others, both as healers and patients.
There are many paths leading to the same place, don't you think?

Knorxl

[selfonlypath]

I probably wasn't clear enough, then; I'm not that good at explaining something I do without involving the intellectual brain! Please accept my apologies.

Well, you don't have to apologize because exchanging about non-duality awareness in this dual plane of existence is difficult by construction, even more difficult by mail where written words have a very dense dual energy.

The opening of the central channel and the circulation of qi is essential to the Buqi system, combined with the elimination of binqi.

Everything I do while singing (or practicing taiji, qigong, as well as bodywork) involves the activation of the dantian prior to anything else, and of course the opening of the central channel. Without this, there would be limited results, indeed.

I don't have any direct knowledge of Buqi which is why i asked you questions. My knowledge of Qigong is through the work of Dr. Yang Jwing-Ming and Dr. Glenn Morris although my personal practice is within shamanism, tantrism and dzogchen.

If you agree, let us go back to the purpose of this forum which is about overtone singing. Since your system includes central channel clearing plus you have studied under Nikolay Oorzhak, i would be interested in your personal experience and advices of using khoomei to clear the central channel.

You might want to read a variant of this question I asked on the other thread of this forum http://www.khoomei.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=845

There are many paths leading to the same place, don't you think?

Yes, I agree and what you just wrote is one step towards the dissolution of ego.

In Shakti, Albert

[Knorxl]

[...]If you agree, let us go back to the purpose of this forum which is about overtone singing. Since your system includes central channel clearing plus you have studied under Nikolay Oorzhak, i would be interested in your personal experience and advices of using khoomei to clear the central channel.

I wouldn't dare say that I 'have studied' under Nikolay, having just followed one workshop with him a couple of weeks ago - although I really hope I can follow many more workshops with him in the future. This being said, I'll try to describe what my experience is; I don't feel I'm experienced enough to give genuine advice on how to use khoomei, though. For this, you'll have to let me have a few years of practice! ;-)

So at present, I can't really say that I use khoomei to clear the central channel, mainly because I'm too new to khoomei. I use taiji and qigong techniques which I already know and have been practicing for nearly 10 years. When the preliminary clearing work is done, I can start producing deliberately chosen sounds, or sounds that come spontaneously; it can be a mix of non-khoomei and khoomei sounds. This seems to depend on my current state and what I need at a given time, and it can greatly vary from one day to the next.

During the healing sessions I had with Nikolay, he used sounds combined with other techniques. Obviously his way of using khoomei is very effective, but I honestly couldn't say how much of the efficiency came purely from the sounds, or the other techniques, and how much came from him as an individual; it may even be somewhat pointless to try to evaluate such a thing.

As I'm writing this, I realise that it's probably not so much the techniques used which matter, but the power developed by the person using them. Hence my theoretical question: 'What would have been the result of the same number of healing sessions with another person treating me, using the same techniques?'


For what it's worth,

Knorxl

[throatsinger]

Interesting topic, folks. Glad I finally have some time to respond.

I am somewhat familiar with qigong healing sounds, as taught by Ken Cohen. http://www.qigonghealing.com/ It is possible and even likely that different teachers have varying approaches to this topic. Various mouth sounds are produced, which, combined with movements are intended to heal/balance various organs. There are different sounds for, say, spleen, kidneys, etc. I say "mouth sounds" because only some are true vocalizations.

"Not everything is explained in detail, though, particularly concerning the technical aspects; the reason for this is that the teacher is worried than people might think they can 'get it right', so to speak, just with reading a book, and he finds this risky. If you don't learn how to do things properly, you may end up either not getting any result, or worse, you can end up doing things in ways which can be detrimental to your physical or mental health."

Sometimes, with certain things (and throat-singing can be one of them) this is certainly the case. However, I suspect that such warnings of risk are often exaggerated, at least for a sensible and moderate person, and are sometimes motivated by financial and "mystique" motivations. I am not accusing this teacher of any such thing, but note that I feel that it is quite common. In addition, toeing the line of tradition can interfere with one developing one's own intuition and sensitivity, which is often more relevant and useful than any teachings.

"From what you've shared, the system you practice does not provide specific energy work on the *central channel* aka *sushumna* aka *taiji pole* aka *middle pillar* aka *no name channel* which is the only non-dual esoteric channel to enable self-realization process."

Yow! You are claiming that this is factual and true?!?! How can you do that? Sorry, whenever anyone claims that their way (or that of their teacher) is the ONLY way, I must ask how you know. Are you familiar and knowledgable in every possible method, technique, etc., which would be required if your claim is valid?

Like most Qigong variant, this system only deals with clearing dualistics channels or nadis or vessels that of course need to be stable before dissolving the winds (energy currents) into the non dual channel otherwise one can go through severe bio-mental-spiritual self-damage."

Please support this with evidence, and clearly define these terms. And please consider whether or not there are ways of working with sound and healing that do not deal with terms and concepts of "nadis," "winds," non-dual channels," and "severe bio-mental-spiritual self-damage." I work in this field, and do not use these terms, nor do I experience things in these ways. Also, "can" is a very loose word when used in such strong cautionary context. For example: Practicing certain meditative techniques can cause a person to leave his/her body and render them unable to return. Saying that something is possible does not provide logical evidence or proof of it actually happening.

"It is still an open question if khoomei is a more powerful sound clearing technique as opposed to classical yoga of sound or healing mantras... I think the answer is yes but never met so far a master of this very subject."

I think the answer is no. Nor do I think that it is a correct question. I also know of nobody making this claim... who does? Maybe there is no master of this very subject. Do you have reason to believe this, or just desire?

I'm not sure exactly how you define "sound clearing technique." Please explain. And anyway, would one method, khoomei or classical yoga or ? be intrinsically and always superior for all people with all situations and contexts?

"Well, you don't have to apologize because exchanging about non-duality awareness in this dual plane of existence is difficult by construction, even more difficult by mail where written words have a very dense dual energy."

My dear Albert, I suggest that the issues here are not due to constructions and dual planes of existence (I suggest that there are dualities in perspectives, not existence) nor an overly dense dual energy of written words, but rather point to the need for careful and considered expression, with a minimum of confusion and an eye toward clarity. More difficult topics than this can be discussed in an illuminating manner!

"You might want to read a variant of this question I asked on the other thread of this forum http://www.khoomei.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=845"

Should we combine these topics? I think that would facilitate this discussion. Any objections?

"If you agree, let us go back to the purpose of this forum which is about overtone singing."

This category is called "sound healing," so don't worry about that! ;-)

"Yes, I agree and what you just wrote is one step towards the dissolution of ego."

Is this truly desirable? I used to think so, when I was more easily convinced by my previous teachers. Now, I'd no more wish to lose my ego than my foot! We have an ego for a good reason, and I suggest that we need to expand its range and abilities rather than to dissolve or "kill" it. Perhaps we need to define "ego," or at least attempt to do so?

"I wouldn't dare say that I 'have studied' under Nikolay, having just followed one workshop with him a couple of weeks ago - although I really hope I can follow many more workshops with him in the future."

I lived and worked closely with Nikolai for several months, but that was years ago. It seems that his practice and teachings have changed quite a bit.

"Obviously his way of using khoomei is very effective..."

For you, what makes this so obvious? I'm not arguing otherwise, just interested in knowing.

"As I'm writing this, I realise that it's probably not so much the techniques used which matter, but the power developed by the person using them. Hence my theoretical question: 'What would have been the result of the same number of healing sessions with another person treating me, using the same techniques?'"

I submit that in this work, the most important things are intent, belief, attitudes, thoughts, and feelings (on the part of all participants), combined with the setting, and the skill (abilities, regardless of techniques) of the healer. High expectations can be very powerful.

Also, even when getting results, there are short-term and long-term results. Short term improvements, while valuable, are much more common. This often escapes notice.

Cheers,

[throatsinger]

"Should we combine these topics? I think that would facilitate this discussion. Any objections?"

Never mind; I'd confused it with a different thread on elsewhere.

[khomus]

Have to agree with Steve here, particularly about different things in
different situations. Let's say I'm using a khomus, but as one reviewer
of a CD put it, the person thinks of it as a "mouth spring" and annoying
as all get out. That's probably not going to result in the best healing
for them. Similarly, I know somebody who absolutely cannot stand high
sounds. So something like a flute, unless played very low of course,
probably wouldn't work for them, sygyt as well come to that. It seems
trivially simple to expand these examples into other techniques and
practices, so I won't belabor the point, for once in my life, heh.

But to me it seems a lot more logical. You wouldn't expect the same
food to nourish the body day in and day out, so why the same sound? You
certainly don't have illness from a single cause, nor cure it with a
single cure, so why would you expect anything different here? Of course
if you're getting results, well, can't really argue too much with
results. And of course even a single system has lots of variation
within it. But that's how I see it, anyway.
(sent via Mail2Forum)

[Knorxl]

Hi Steve,

As some of the text you quote and question comes from my posts, I'll do my best to provide some clarification...

"Not everything is explained in detail, though, particularly concerning the technical aspects; the reason for this is that the teacher is worried than people might think they can 'get it right', so to speak, just with reading a book, and he finds this risky. If you don't learn how to do things properly, you may end up either not getting any result, or worse, you can end up doing things in ways which can be detrimental to your physical or mental health."

Sometimes, with certain things (and throat-singing can be one of them) this is certainly the case. However, I suspect that such warnings of risk are often exaggerated, at least for a sensible and moderate person, and are sometimes motivated by financial and "mystique" motivations. I am not accusing this teacher of any such thing, but note that I feel that it is quite common. In addition, toeing the line of tradition can interfere with one developing one's own intuition and sensitivity, which is often more relevant and useful than any teachings.

Indeed, sometimes the motivation is also financial, or related to a wish to 'protect' one's teachings and knowledge. The problem, though, is that not all people are sensible and moderate in their experimentation, and at the end of the day, it is the responsibility of the person teaching taiji or qigong, or the healer using energetic techniques, to ensure that the students/patients go home in a healthy state, or at least without any newly acquired problems. Too much enthusiasm combined with high expectations or needs can make one forget about reasonable pacing, as is often the case with children when they start discovering things...

The 'toeing the line' dilemma: I agree with you that individual intuition and sensitivity is very important. My personal solution for this has been to 'be a good student' until I was able to understand my teacher's system and make sure I wasn't distorting or misusing it.
For the anecdote: I remember once learning a technique applicable to the vague nerve, and practicing on a fellow student. At some point he politely asked me to find a way to stop the headache and nausea I had very successfully managed to provoque.
While this is OK when learning, it's not what you want to see happen with an official patient... :-D

"I wouldn't dare say that I 'have studied' under Nikolay, having just followed one workshop with him a couple of weeks ago - although I really hope I can follow many more workshops with him in the future."

I lived and worked closely with Nikolai for several months, but that was years ago. It seems that his practice and teachings have changed quite a bit.

I don't know how Nikolay's practice and teachings were several years ago, but I can imagine it must have been different; do you think that part of this can be due to him adapting to people from the western world? It would also make sense to me to consider that as both a person and a shaman, he's continually evolving, and that would also be reflected in his teachings, or the way he teaches.
There is also a big difference in how you teach someone over a period of several months, and how you teach an heterogeneous group over two short days.
During the weekend workshop I had with him, he talked about kundalini and the chakras, giving me the impression that the shamanic tradition he's part of has many similarities to Tibetan buddhism.

"Obviously his way of using khoomei is very effective..."

For you, what makes this so obvious? I'm not arguing otherwise, just interested in knowing.

That's not something I can talk about in scientific terms (unless there are ways of measuring my reactions which would be acceptable to the scientific community).
I am very sensitive to sounds and vibrations, for various reasons (through my healing practices trainings, also because my companion is a semi-professional singer with an amazing voice, etc.). I have heard different Tuvan and Mongolian throat singers over the past years, and the effects of Nikolay's voice on me are stronger than most voices I've heard sofar. When I listen to his singing, I am aware of blockages being cleared, I feel my spine spontaneously stretch and realign, and my lower dantian does it's own version of Lurch's 'you rang?' routine. Need I say more?
:-D

"As I'm writing this, I realise that it's probably not so much the techniques used which matter, but the power developed by the person using them. Hence my theoretical question: 'What would have been the result of the same number of healing sessions with another person treating me, using the same techniques?'"

I submit that in this work, the most important things are intent, belief, attitudes, thoughts, and feelings (on the part of all participants), combined with the setting, and the skill (abilities, regardless of techniques) of the healer. High expectations can be very powerful.

Quite so, indeed. That's why my 'theoretical question' is a bit pointless.

Also, even when getting results, there are short-term and long-term results. Short term improvements, while valuable, are much more common. This often escapes notice.

That's something I'm very much aware of. Most techniques applied can produce instant visible results, but I often find (both as a patient and a practitioner) that sustained results require physical, mental and sometimes spiritual changes, which can only be established with time and continued work from both sides of the practice.
At the end of my healing session with Nikolay, he told me that he would normally need five sessions to correct/treat everything. As we had little time, we had 2 more sessions over the 2 days he was still there; these were extremely intense and powerful and I have felt better since. However, I know that I need to continue working on it on my own, both to maintain the achieved results, and to continue improving my state. For this, I use what I know (using the taiji principles) and I listen to Nikolay's voice, which functions pretty much like a 'booster shot'.
Remarkably, in the week following my encounter with Nikolay, I had a spiritual experience which wouldn't have been possible before - simply because I wasn't in a state allowing me to process it.

Cordially,

Knorxl

[selfonlypath]

Hi Steve,

From what you've shared, the system you practice does not provide specific energy work on the *central channel* aka *sushumna* aka *taiji pole* aka *middle pillar* aka *no name channel* which is the only non-dual esoteric channel to enable self-realization process.

Yow! You are claiming that this is factual and true?!?! How can you do that? Sorry, whenever anyone claims that their way (or that of their teacher) is the ONLY way, I must ask how you know. Are you familiar and knowledgable in every possible method, technique, etc., which would be required if your claim is valid?

I never claim that my way was better or the only way neither gave any indication on the system I practice or the teachers who taught me that system !

The system i'm practicing provides me a specific siddhi where I can detect shakti-kundalini even through mail or a webpage so I just gave a first analysis from the data brought as of today by Knorxl.

It is still an open question if khoomei is a more powerful sound clearing technique as opposed to classical yoga of sound or healing mantras... I think the answer is yes but never met so far a master of this very subject.

I think the answer is no.

Thanks a lot for this info which is the main reason I came here since i'm discovering khoomei.

I'm not sure exactly how you define "sound clearing technique." Please explain. And anyway, would one method, khoomei or classical yoga or ? be intrinsically and always superior for all people with all situations and contexts?

For me, "sound clearing" is a method based on sounds able to burn samskaras on dual channels or sushumna.

Yes, I agree and what you just wrote is one step towards the dissolution of ego.

Is this truly desirable? I used to think so, when I was more easily convinced by my previous teachers. Now, I'd no more wish to lose my ego than my foot! We have an ego for a good reason, and I suggest that we need to expand its range and abilities rather than to dissolve or "kill" it. Perhaps we need to define "ego," or at least attempt to do so?

Dangerous road you're suggesting because it is only ego that will attempt to define ego so it is catch 22 situation leading no where.

In Shakti, Albert

[khomus]

I think the idea that your system is the only right system/the best
system comes from the fact that you claim that not dealing with the
central channel, the only nondualistic channel, leads to lesser results
at the best, and damage at the worst. There are certainly things
involving sound healing, many forms of shamanism among them, that don't
deal with channels and winds and dualism and such at all.
(sent via Mail2Forum)