Health Problems / Lower life expectancy?

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Re: Health Problems / Lower life expectancy?

Postby sennomo » Sat Jan 19, 2008 4:53 am

Urdunchimeg wrote:indeed! I wonder, why it is so uncommon, how is it that central Asians even stumbled on it in the first place. Most of the world did not...amazing...

sennomo wrote:Throat singing is uncommon but entirely natural, just like pharyngealized consonants, creaky voices, and many other phonological devices of human speech.


Most of the world does not speak with clicks as some people in southern Africa do. Implosive consonants are rare outside of Africa. Few languages have the "r" sound characteristic of North American English. Swedish uses tones to distinguish between otherwise identical words, but other modern European languages do not. I could go on for a while about phonological rarities; in short, the human vocal apparatus is a very versatile system and people all around the world continue to discover ways of using it that apparently no other people thought of.
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Re: Health Problems / Lower life expectancy?

Postby yidaki » Sat Jan 19, 2008 8:06 am

As the story goes,
the tuvans/mongolians mimicked the sound of a specific mountain.
There's a mountain on the border between Tuva and Mongolia,
that under optimal wind conditions sounds like throat singing.
There aren't mountains like that everywhere,
but there has to be a culture of mimicking as well.
They sing "baah bahah" like sheep,
and they have a horn that sounds just like moose,
and ofcourse the horsehead fiddle can be made to sound like a gneigh of a horse.
This mimicking comes from their shamanic/animalistic heritage,
singing like the river is like communicating with it's spirit,
singing like a bird makes some of it's powers rub off on you.
So there's more then one thing going on,
ecology, culture, religion, probably even economy,
working together to create a social environment suitable for throat singing.

This socio-cultural history of throat singing in the region is also interesting for it's health aspects.
If I were to boldly compare throat singing to drugs;
Some drugs are sanctioned, legal, whilst others are not.
In Sweden we drink alcohol and smoke cigarettes,
killing ourselves every year, every day.
In Jamaica they smoke marijuana,
it's not legal, but it's mostly sanctioned behaviour anyway.
Taking alcohol in Sweden,
there's a bunch of social rules associated with it,
outside of the legal system.
We learn when to drink,
when to toast, when we've drunk enough,
when we should take care of our friend for drinking too much, etc.
(I have to say though, Swedes have a historical problem with overdoing vodka)
In cultures where alcohol is not sanctioned,
in arabic cultures for instance,
they don't have this social net of rules and security.
An alcoholic in an arabic country is more or less on his own,
because noone knows how to deal with it,
except total exclusion.
So it's easier to become an alcoholic in an arabic country,
given that you have access to alcohol and start drinking in the first place,
and when you are an alcoholic you don't get any help or sympathy
to help you stop.
Putting this example on throat singing (yeah, I know, it's a rather far-fetched analogy),
the siberians have a culture of throat singing.
They know when not to sing, (too cold outside, too early in the morning, too hungover, etc)
they know when they are doing something wrong, (too harsh voice, too loud a volume, too much pressure, etc)
and they know not to do stuff that would anger the spirits.
These unwritten rules, this common sense of throat singing,
which connected to the their social life,
help throat singers prevent getting sick from throat singing.
For them it's safe to throat sing.
For someone on the other side of the planet,
with no culture of throat singing,
it's easier to do something wrong,
and to keep on doing it.

I don't know exactly what would be that dangerous though.
There have been reports of people croaking,
but they had other health problems as well.
As long as you don't overdo it, you should be fine.
Still, it's not as Tuvans and such don't have a headstart in this. :lol:
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Re: Health Problems / Lower life expectancy?

Postby Urdunchimeg » Sun Jan 20, 2008 12:23 am

sennomo wrote:
Urdunchimeg wrote:indeed! I wonder, why it is so uncommon, how is it that central Asians even stumbled on it in the first place. Most of the world did not...amazing...

sennomo wrote:Throat singing is uncommon but entirely natural, just like pharyngealized consonants, creaky voices, and many other phonological devices of human speech.


Most of the world does not speak with clicks as some people in southern Africa do. Implosive consonants are rare outside of Africa. Few languages have the "r" sound characteristic of North American English. Swedish uses tones to distinguish between otherwise identical words, but other modern European languages do not. I could go on for a while about phonological rarities; in short, the human vocal apparatus is a very versatile system and people all around the world continue to discover ways of using it that apparently no other people thought of.


Thanks for the ifo, it is very informative
:)
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THROAT SINGING AND THROAT CANCER

Postby duotone » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:01 am

I have been singing harmonic overtones for years most similar to the higher pitched Tuvan Sygyt style. Recently I have had swelling of the throat in the same area of tension as in the singing. It feels as though theres a lump in my throat and it is noticeable while eating. I had some acid reflux also but I fixed my diet. I had been eating tons of tangerines and had also been drinking a lot more tea than usual and that comes with hot water which may have exacerbated things. I have sinced stopped eating these things and stopped the hot liquids, tea etc. and a beer on some days. But I still have this tight swelling feeling in my throat. I may have irritated my throat with a combination of things. This has been going on for a week and half but is getting better. I have seen a general physician who has prescribed me some acid reflux oriented medicine.

Anyway I've been doing some research on the potential for throat cancer in throat singers and the only thing I came up with is this Washington Post article from 1996. It does indeed address the issue:
________________________________________________________________________________________________
Tuvan Throat-Singers Perform Feats of Harmonic Acrobatics
The Washington Post, Monday, January 15, 1996, page A5
Science / Ethnomusicology

(relevant excerpt):

Anthony Jahn, an ear, nose, and throat surgeon, and Anat Keidar, a voice scientist and speech pathologist, together have studied how this is accomplished. At Vox Humana Voice La, which is affiliated with Roosevelt Hospital in New York City, they used a fiber optic endoscope, placed through the nose into the throat, to see what throat-singers actually did.
These researchers found that singers used anatomical structures, such as the false vocal cords and the aryepiglottic folds, as well as the tongue to create distinct but interconnected resonating chambers capable of accentuating or dampening harmonics.
They also found evidence of swelling, blood vessel growth, and even a form of chronic inflammation that can lead to cancer, in the throats of some singers.
Undaunted by occupational risks, and making the most of Russia's new capitalism, Huun-Huur-Tu exemplifies the evolution of throat-singing in Tuva.


_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Now before you get scared read on. I sent a letter to Dr. Jahn, here is his recent response:

______________________________________________________________________________________________________________

Dr. Jahn: I remember examining the Tuvans when they came to our office in 1996. They achieve this voice in part by using the false vocal folds and other, normally non-phonatory, parts of the larynx. I don't believe it really puts you at risk for cancer. Many of the Tuvans also smoke, which is more of a risk. If you are concerned, though, you should see an otolaryngologist and have your throat examined. Assuming that you are not throat-singing 6 hours a day, don't smoke and don't drink to excess, your chances of cancer are really minimal.

________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

So this is the bottom line according to Dr. Jahn.
However, I don't think the issue is resolved. This examination is one examination not a study.

I only practice for 15 minutes a day, 3-4 days a week. True, I do practice outside in what is now cold weather in New York. But it has been only been around 30 F lately. My current problem may have nothing to do with the singing. I have stopped for the moment. I had only practiced for more than 30 minutes at a time because I get hoarse by that time. But by the same token I question if some Tuvans actually practice as much as 6 hours a day.maybe that is just his assumption. Maybe longer practice can be done in less strenuous styles than the higher pitched Sygyt style. I do think Sygyt it's much more strenous in terms of tensing up the throat.

I'm trying to get more information on this topic.
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Re: Health Problems / Lower life expectancy?

Postby hjernespiser » Sun Feb 03, 2008 2:56 am

Um, you shouldn't be getting hoarse, especially after only 30 minutes.
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Re: Health Problems / Lower life expectancy?

Postby throatsinger » Sun Feb 03, 2008 4:07 am

I'm not scared.

That said, acid reflux is not good; acid can be inhaled into the larynx with the expected results. :sick:

I don't read what the Dr. said as implying that Tuvans sing 6 hours/day, rather than suggesting that would be excessive.

I've been examined, and was present for HHT's exams. No such problems were reported then (and they smoke).

Can't say much about what you do without samples, so post 'em if you can. And if you have any persistent or worrisome problems, see your health care provider. Also, make sure that you aren't straining, which is unnecessary and undesirable.

It is good to practice careful throat massage. Singing can build tension that should be released.

Hope this helps,
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Re: Health Problems / Lower life expectancy?

Postby selfonlypath » Wed Mar 12, 2008 7:28 am

Hey,

Here is a quote from "Overtone Singing" book written by Mark Van Tongeren (second edition, p. 243):

At this point, I would like to remind of the tragic deaths of many excellent young throat singers in the time since I started visiting Tuva: the master Khoomeizhi Tumat Gennadi and two other members of the Ay-Kherel Ensemble; Gennadi Chash; Oleg Kuular,... It is obvious that being a master throat singer does not turn one into a healthy or happy person per se. Despite a glorious carrer, friction in other domains of life may persist or even increase because of that career.

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Re: Health Problems / Lower life expectancy?

Postby hjernespiser » Wed Mar 12, 2008 4:14 pm

selfonlypath wrote:Hey,

Here is a quote from "Overtone Singing" book written by Mark Van Tongeren (second edition, p. 243):

At this point, I would like to remind of the tragic deaths of many excellent young throat singers in the time since I started visiting Tuva: the master Khoomeizhi Tumat Gennadi and two other members of the Ay-Kherel Ensemble; Gennadi Chash; Oleg Kuular,... It is obvious that being a master throat singer does not turn one into a healthy or happy person per se. Despite a glorious carrer, friction in other domains of life may persist or even increase because of that career.

Albert


You could add Kurt Cobain to that list as well...
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Re: Health Problems / Lower life expectancy?

Postby melodioso » Wed Mar 12, 2008 11:03 pm

sid vicious
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Re: Health Problems / Lower life expectancy?

Postby aiwetir » Thu Mar 13, 2008 12:48 am

i don't recall either kurt or sid being throat singers :shock:
normal's not normal if you're not normal
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Re: Health Problems / Lower life expectancy?

Postby selfonlypath » Thu Mar 13, 2008 4:13 am

Hey Hjernespiser and Melodioso,

I don't understand your answers to my last post !
Don't you consider Mark van Tongeren's book a good reference ?

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Re: Health Problems / Lower life expectancy?

Postby hjernespiser » Fri Mar 14, 2008 1:44 am

Quote from the book: "Despite a glorious career, friction in other domains of life may persist or even increase because of that career."

Call it the "rock star disease". These artists didn't die due to some health problems caused by throat-singing (by itself). They died due to their popularity. IE. It doesn't matter that their popularity was due to their throat-singing ability. It didn't matter that Kurt Cobain was a musician. Musicians don't have health problems because they are musicians.
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Re: Health Problems / Lower life expectancy?

Postby selfonlypath » Fri Mar 14, 2008 4:11 am

Ok, thanks for clarifying.

You see, what got me confused is the quoted paragraph lies in the middle of a part of the book adressing the question of khoomei in regards of spirituality !

My personal point of view is that spiritual path is to experience the answer of what is death but this another topic I guess.

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