Kargyraa help

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Kargyraa help

Postby Lunar Delta » Fri Jan 23, 2009 1:01 pm

Hello. I have recently begun to study the kargyraa style of Tuvan throat singing. While I am able to produce something resembling a proper 'undertone', I am having some problems I hope the good people here can help me with. Obviously something must be wrong with my technique or else this would not be happening in the first place. Let's hope you can diagnose me.

The main problem I am having is that I am encountering a great deal of irritation in the back of my throat from this. My vocal cords feel fine and I have not lost my voice, but my throat is feeling a rather irritated.

Image

Here is a sample of my tone: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ7iY5m9N1o

(Note: When I am singing by myself, I do not normally start with the vowel sound like that; this video was made for someone who did not know what overtone singing was, so I started off with the fundamental and added in the undertone so that they could see.)

(P.S. I am a total amateur, so if it turns out someone is horribly wrong, cut me some slack!)
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Re: Kargyraa help

Postby imnotelmo » Sat Jan 24, 2009 3:05 pm

i will try to listen to your sample when i get
by a computer with good speakers so i can
give you an opinion.

in the mean time, if you haven't already done so,
check out Steve's lessons and info here at khoomei.com
and take a listen to my crash course at
http://www.USkhoomeizhi.org/khoomei/HOW-TO/
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Re: Kargyraa help

Postby Lunar Delta » Sat Jan 24, 2009 7:04 pm

The crash course in Khoomei is actually what got me started. :)

You know the part where you said "You can try... coming straight at it from a normal tone... but most folks have a hard time finding that..." Well, in the end, that's actually how I ended up finding it. :D
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Re: Kargyraa help

Postby aiwetir » Sat Jan 24, 2009 11:50 pm

it appears that you have the basic physiology of kargyraa down, so it seems you are on the right track. i get some irritation if i haven't been singing for a while but it will go away in a day or so, nothing very painful but sometimes i have to stop. how long have you been doing it and how often, perhaps you need to keep in practice to get your anatomy used to the singing. i would say after 2-3 days it shouldn't really irritate at all, but do stop if it continues to hurt.

maybe someone else has a different opinion on what is happening with you.

you are out of tune though and what i mean by that is that the harmonics that are coming out are not quite the right match to the tone you are singing. no biggie, you can fine tune that by just moving your tongue through the harmonic range until you find the right tuning. once you have that, then you can start to manipulate your lips and the opening of your mouth to sing some melodies.
normal's not normal if you're not normal
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Re: Kargyraa help

Postby Lunar Delta » Sun Jan 25, 2009 12:57 am

aiwetir wrote:how long have you been doing it and how often, perhaps you need to keep in practice to get your anatomy used to the singing.
maybe someone else has a different opinion on what is happening with you.


The video was recorded only an hour or so after I learned the trick of engaging the ventricular folds. Which is probably why it sounds so raw and unrefined. :anxious:

you are out of tune though and what i mean by that is that the harmonics that are coming out are not quite the right match to the tone you are singing. no biggie, you can fine tune that by just moving your tongue through the harmonic range until you find the right tuning. once you have that, then you can start to manipulate your lips and the opening of your mouth to sing some melodies.


Yeah. Right now I am just working on making sure my technique is consistent and isn't going to damage me.
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Re: Kargyraa help

Postby throatsinger » Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:54 am

Hi LD,

First, welcome to the forum. Next, not sure what the graphic is for; where is the discomfort, exactly? At any rate, I don't hear anything terribly wrong for a beginner. It does sound like perhaps other tissues in the throat are rattling more than necessary, which can easily improve with practice. Also, keep in mind that for this purpose a high fidelity audio sample is preferable to a YT video.

Now, this may or may not be your issue, but I want to share this and it seems like a good time: Why do most beginners feel something "not good" in the throat when learning kargyraa? Here's my theory in a sort of cartoon-y fashion (I welcome any input from all our neuro-physiologist members):

Somewhere in the brain, there is a body-mapping center. It is in charge of analyzing incoming signals from various parts of the body, so that we know our left big toe from our right earlobe, etc. Now, when we begin singing kargyraa, we start sending a signal from the larynx in the region of the ventricular folds. Up there in the mapping mission control room, the little neuron-folks notice this incoming signal. Hmmm... a red light is flashing...the buzzer is blaring... it's labeled "Sector 252 b." The head neuron there asks, "anyone know what sector 252 b is? We're not use to receiving data from there. No response from the neuro-underlings. So the boss directs the underlings to fetch the manual...

The neuro-underling responsible for the throat looks it up and reports that Sector 252 b is something called "the venrtricular folds." Hmmm... anyone know what that could mean? There's no consensus, being a new phenomenon. "Well," says the chief, "what else does it say?"

"It says that an incoming signal may indicate some sort of debris has entered the larynx."

"Well, we don't want anything getting into the lungs, so send the cough command."

"Right away, boss!" And we cough.

"Scan indicates all clear, boss. But we're still getting signal."

"Hmmm," says the neuron-in-charge, there's probably no major threat, but we'd better enter something into the log. What should we classify it as?"

"I think it's a tickle, cheif" says one worker. "Maybe a slight pain or irritation" says another. "Or a tickle?" suggests another, and so on...

"Well," replies the boss, "let's just keep an eye on it and see what develops."

So, we continue to practice our kargyraa, all the while the good folks at body mapping central monitoring, noting a scratchiness here and a tickle there.

After a few days, the boss tires of the signal, orders the red flashing light and the buzzer disconnected, and their attention returns to their old routines, the ventricular folds largely forgotten (until you stop practicing for an extended period, then begin anew, right Michael?). ;)

Hope this helps,
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Re: Kargyraa help

Postby Lunar Delta » Sun Jan 25, 2009 1:26 pm

Sorry, the image was supposed to show where my highest levels of subjective discomfort were coming from.
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Re: Kargyraa help

Postby throatsinger » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:39 pm

Ok, it was late. I get it now.

Your Medulla Oblongata and brainstem are back there. They're probably about to burst from the intense vibration. Oh, well! :mrgreen:

Seriously, though, you're likely rattling some other tissues in your throat, and will learn via practice to not do so. Or maybe you're somewhere frozen and super dry, like me, and things can get irritated easily. Make sure you're well-hydrated. If it's worrisome, or continues, get it looked at by your health-care professional, as always!
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Re: Kargyraa help

Postby melodioso » Sun Jan 25, 2009 9:27 pm

Try to get the sound sweet or mellow more than loud or harsh. It's not necessary (or possible) in the beginning to get a sweet tone, but just trying to get it sweet will let you understand many things.
All the best,
Last edited by melodioso on Tue Apr 20, 2010 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Kargyraa help

Postby Masklin » Sat Jan 31, 2009 1:48 pm

This subject was similar to the one I was about to thread, so I'll just continue here if that's okay.

Hello everyone! First time here.

I saw some videos on youtube and was very fascinated by kargyraa and the way it gives you another octave downwards, so I decided I'm gonna master this before I die.

I've had limited success, I can do a sort of breathy, low and slightly growlish sound around G1, but when I try to make the sound less breathy I get sore and dry in my throat - also the sound still lacks that clear and soft characteristic I'm looking for.

I googled and I ended up here, I've read and listened to the tutorials but couldn't find an answer for this.

Please guys, I would so very much love to sing along to low basses like Tim Riley or Paul David Kennamer (even though he uses inwards fry for bass - still sounds good so ;))
but it just hurts and sounds like crap!

I don't know what else to say, I would upload an audio file but I don't know how to do that.

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